Behind the Numbers - Special Edition Episode: The creator era: How creators are redefining media, marketing and commerce

Audio by Marcus Johnson, and Jasmine Enberg | UPDATED: Oct 13, 2024

Episode Transcript:

Marcus Johnson:

See how this episode is sponsored by TikTok for Business? Very mindful. Using their measurement solutions reveal the true impact and performance of your ads. See, very demure. Learn more about better measurement on TikTok at tiktok.com/business.

Jasmine Enberg:

We're in this moment where the B2B buyer is getting younger. Sometimes it's the same person who's scrolling through TikTok looking for lipstick, who's then at least part of the decision-making process for a B2B brand. So, those companies need to learn to speak their language, and who better to work with than a creator?

Marcus Johnson:

This is a special edition episode of Behind the Numbers, made possible by TikTok. The market principal analyst, Jasmine Enberg, sits down with Yahoo Finance Senior Reporter, Alexandra Canal, to discuss the creator economy. This episode was recorded during The Creator Era: How Creators Are Redefining Media, Marketing and Commerce Panel at the 2024 NAB Show in New York. We hope you enjoy it.

Alexandra Canal:

Thanks for joining us today. I'm Alexandra Canal. I'm Senior Reporter at Yahoo Finance, and I'm very excited to be talking about the creator economy with Jasmine Enberg. Jasmine, do you just want to tell the crowd a little bit of what you do?

Jasmine Enberg:

Sure. Hi, everyone. I'm Jasmine Enberg. I am Vice President and Principal Analyst at eMarketer, and I lead our coverage of social media and the creator economy.

Alexandra Canal:

All right. Well, let's dive into that creator economy. I want to start pretty broad. What is a creator and can it even be defined at this point?

Jasmine Enberg:

It's such a great question. There is no standard definition of a creator. At eMarketer, we define a creator as a person or an entity who develops digital content for digital platforms with the purpose of building, maintaining, and monetizing that content and the audience. It's used often interchangeably with the word influencer, but influencer, of course, has a bit of a negative connotation these days. I don't think that's necessarily fair, and I've been advocating for injustice for the word influencer.

There certainly is some overlap between the two, but an influencer, at least in the way that we define it at eMarketer, is anybody who has the ability to sway the purchasing decisions or loyalty of a broader population. So, if you think about creators that are working with brands to promote or endorse products, they're also in that sense influencers.

Alexandra Canal:

So how's the importance of this creator role changed over the years, especially from a brand perspective?

Jasmine Enberg:

So I've been calling 2024 the year of legitimacy for the creator economy and for influencer marketing. It is a long overdue, but I feel like we're finally in this moment where every CMO, every marketer really understands that they need to be working with creators. There's a lot of reasons for this. A lot of those reasons are external. So, if you think back to some of the big events that have happened over the past six months or so, Cannes Lions, for example, having a dedicated creator track, you have the Creator Economy Conference in Washington, DC.

You have YouTube beating out Netflix in terms of watch time, and all of these things have served to really make marketers realize that this is a space that we need to be working in. I will say though that not every CMO, not every brand is rushing towards creators and influencers with open arms. There's still quite a bit of hesitancy. I hear some reluctancy and a true lack of understanding in terms of how they build an effective creator and influencer strategy, but even this mindset shift of we have to be working with creators and influencers is a huge step in the right direction.

Alexandra Canal:

So what's the root of some of the reluctancies, as you put it, for these brands to partner with these types of work with creators?

Jasmine Enberg:

Yeah, so it depends on the brand, but historically speaking, one of the big hesitations for brands has been "brand safety" or the risk of something going wrong or a creator saying something that will ultimately have a negative impact on the brand. That's still true, especially for brands that are in highly regulated industries if you think about healthcare, financial services. But I think for the most part, marketers now do understand that creators for the most part also do not want to make a mistake. This is the way that they earn a living. If you do your research and vet these creators beforehand, the likelihood of that happening is much lower than we might imagine.

I think the hesitation today primarily comes from the difficulties or the seeming difficulties in measuring the impact of creator activations and influencer marketing overall, when you compare it to other forms of digital marketing. The CMO needs easy, strong story to tell to the CFO to be able to continue to invest in a certain marketing tactic. It's not always that easy to prove the ROI of the influencer campaign.

Alexandra Canal:

Why? Especially in this day and age, we talk a lot about artificial intelligence, technological advances. How can we not prove that this campaign or whatever this influencer is doing is bringing returns to the company?

Jasmine Enberg:

Well, there's a lot of different reasons why, and it all depends on what you're using or what you're working with creators for, what objectives you're trying to attain. But because a lot of the content that is created by creators is sponsored content, it may not have the same metrics as a digital ad. Then you can then go straight to the CFO and say, "Hey, look, this is the direct return on investment that we got from this." Also, the path to purchase isn't linear. So, we know that influencers and creators play a crucial role in getting a customer to eventually convert, but it doesn't necessarily happen immediately.

So, I mean, I'm sure there are times that you've seen a creator post about a brand or a product and later you've been at Sephora or something and seen that product and then purchased it. I know I have. How do you track that? It is very, very difficult to measure, and we are in this performance marketing era where marketers really are expecting to show that return on investment easily.

Alexandra Canal:

So you mentioned sponsored posts, brand deals. When I think of an influencer or creator, that's immediately what comes to mind. Is that still the primary way that creators are making their income?

Jasmine Enberg:

For the most part, yes. So, every individual creator's income breakdown will look somewhat different. It depends on the number of followers they have, what platforms they're active on, what industry they're operating in. But if you look at the creator economy as a whole, brand deals are the number one revenue stream.

So, at eMarketer, we just released a forecast looking at all of the different ways in which creators and influencers are earning revenue on social media and brand deals account for about 60% of that. You've got things like platform payouts, which is ad revenue sharing programs from platforms like YouTube, for example, that account for another about 20%, and then there's a myriad of other revenue streams. But yes, I would say that brand deals overall are the number one revenue stream for most creators.

Alexandra Canal:

How about creators going direct to consumer and asking for tips essentially? We're in this tipping culture. Has that gained traction recently?

Jasmine Enberg:

Yes, it is one of the fastest growing revenue streams for creators, but you also have to remember that these are really small sums. For the most part, many the platforms in which you can tip a creator do have a cap, a maximum in terms of how much you can tip at a time, which is usually around something like $50. So, you have to have a lot of people actually tipping in order to make real income off of that, but there's other direct to consumer tactics that are growing as well, things like subscriptions and merchandising where you have people buying products and services directly from creators. Those are also among the fastest growing revenue streams within the creator economy.

Alexandra Canal:

Going back to how you say 2024 is the year that this economy has been more legit, what opportunities does that bring outside of what we typically think of a creator? I think of MrBeast signing with Amazon Prime Video reported $100 million deal. Are there more opportunities like that?

Jasmine Enberg:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think as the creator economy becomes more legitimate and legitimized and people start to understand the power of creators, the more opportunities there will be. I think the MrBeast deal is a fantastic example of that, but we're also seeing other creators launch their own businesses, their own brands, their own products. I was just at VidCon a couple of months ago and there was a group of seven-figure creators on stage talking about how they think of themselves now as also creators, but primarily CEOs, because they have these businesses and are making real money off of them.

I think when it comes to how brands perceive that, they need to really be taking these creators seriously because we have a limited amount of money to spend as a consumer. If I'm say I am buying MrBeast's Feastables chocolate, I may not be buying another chocolate brand. So, one of the things I always say to brands is, if you're not partnering with creators today, they could become your competitors tomorrow.

Alexandra Canal:

What about the trickle effect that we could see with actual industries? MrBeast could be changing how we think about Hollywood. Even the political arena, as we've gotten closer to the election, I've seen more and more political influencers. Yahoo Finance, we're partnering with several financial influencers to launch new podcasts. So, we're now in an era where it's not just affecting the brands but also actual industries, right?

Jasmine Enberg:

Absolutely. The evolution of political marketing towards creators has been incredibly fascinating for me to watch. It's something that I've been following really closely. You really do have political campaigns now reaching out directly to creators because they've understood the power that they have in driving a message and having that resonate with communities that they need to reach in a way that traditional media cannot. Creators are also incredibly diverse. So, they have this ability to reach more diverse subsets of those communities, again, that may not be paying attention to traditional and national news. I do think it can be a little tricky sometimes and can get a little problematic.

I mean, there is a difference between having a creator or an influencer speak out organically about a political or social issue and a difference between having a political campaign actually sponsor them to do so. We see that in the research. So, we're in this moment too, where consumers expect creators to speak out about these things, but they may not necessarily want that to be tied to a specific political candidate, if that makes sense.

Alexandra Canal:

That makes sense. It also reminds me of the tension that exists, I think, sometimes between what brands want their creators to say versus the creative freedom for an influencer to speak to what they want to say. Do you think that's contributed to some creator burnout out there?

Jasmine Enberg:

Yes. Well, so creative freedom is probably the scariest word that brands can hear when it comes to creator activations. I do think a lot of brands have started to realize that they need to give creators a little bit more "control". Again, I think because creators have become more legitimized and treat this as a career and it's the way that they earn money, they're not, again, trying to write a script or create a video that is somehow going to perk the brand. So, we have seen some brands start to give up a little bit more of the control there, but yeah.

Alexandra Canal:

So let's talk about the different levels and tiers of influencers and what separates the top earners from everybody else and what's the most common? Where do most people fall into?

Jasmine Enberg:

Sure. So, to your point, the creator economy has become so big now that it becomes really difficult to talk about it as a whole. So, you have this top echelon of creators who really are led by MrBeast, and their experiences are the ones that we tend to hear about in the media all the time. They deserve that airtime for everything they're doing in terms of changing media, marketing, and commerce, but their experiences are also very, very different from the long tale of creators, many of whom are struggling to earn a living. There's been some great pieces out recently about this that really speak to the struggles of some of the smaller creators in scoring brand deals, et cetera, and finding ways to make money off of that.

I think one of the things that separates them is community and audience building. I was actually just having breakfast this morning talking about MrBeast and how he has such a strong community that he says, "Go out there and fix any shelves that look a little messy that are selling Feastables." His audience will actually go and do that. So, it really comes down to that community that audience are able to build. A lot of that comes through content and personality shining through.

Alexandra Canal:

When you assess the supply and demand picture, you were just speaking to how diverse the creator economy is. Compared to 10 years ago, there's probably so many more creators. Does that mean that there's more of a limit to what you can make doing this?

Jasmine Enberg:

It's a great question. Yes and no, right? So we are now expecting influencer marketing spending in the US to get close to $10 billion. I think it's about an $8.5 billion this year and $10 billion by 2025 or 2026, excuse me. So, there is a lot of money flowing into influencer marketing, but we're seeing marketers really start to play at the two extremes. So, they're partnering with these very big name stars who charge very high prices and generally do omnichannel campaigns, which are more expensive and require more resources, or they're partnering with the smaller nano, micro-influencers and they're partnering with many of them.

So, while they may charge lower prices, it ends up being more expensive because you have to work with many different micro and nano-influencers to achieve the results that you're looking for. Like you said, there's a lot more creators out there than ever before. It leaves this wide middle class of creators, and those are the ones who are really struggling to score brand deals at this point. They have built enough of an audience where they're not going to settle for say, an affiliate marketing deal, but they don't have that community or that reach that some of the marketers are looking for when they're partnering with bigger creators.

There's just so much competition among that subset. I do think it's a mistake though if brands are not working with the middle set of creators because it is a way for them to make their products and brands seem more relatable than say it's one of the top creators, many of whom are now akin to Hollywood celebrities and less transactional than some of the smaller affiliate creators, for example.

Alexandra Canal:

How would you define that middle market creator and then those nano, micro-influencers too?

Jasmine Enberg:

Generally, they're defined by their number of followers. Again, there's no standard definition, but anywhere usually between 100,000 followers plus is considered a mega or macro influencer. Micro and nano-influencers, depending on which source you ask, can be anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000, maybe even up to 20,000.

Alexandra Canal:

Interesting. Now, as the Yahoo Finance girlie in me, I have to ask the economy, we're in a solid spot, but there is concerns that unemployment will take up, that the US will enter a recession. To me, marketing budgets are the first to go if we enter a downturn. Is that a concern at all? Are you seeing that trickle through into what these may be more smaller influencers are being offered?

Jasmine Enberg:

Yeah, it certainly is a concern. Historically speaking though, we have seen influencer marketing be more resilient than social ad spending, for example. So, if you think back to the social ad spending slump in 2022, 2023, when growth dipped to about, I think it was about 5% per our estimates during that time, influencer marketing spending continued to grow by double digits. Again, a lot of this has to do not only with the community and the connection and the easy way for brands to be able to connect with audiences on social media through creators, but because they tend to provide a less expensive way for them to develop creative that can then be repurposed across many different channels. That's something that we've really seen grow over the past couple of years.

Alexandra Canal:

Is it too strong to say it's recession-proof?

Jasmine Enberg:

I wouldn't use the word recession-proof. I don't know if anything is really recession-proof, but it certainly has been recession-resilient.

Alexandra Canal:

Okay, I like that. When we talk about someone needs financial pressures, are most creators, are they doing it as a side hustle, a second job, or is it their primary income? Do brands care either way?

Jasmine Enberg:

I think for most creators, they want it to be their primary job. As they're starting out, for many of them, it is a side hustle, a side gig, and for a lot of affiliate creators for example, it's a way of earning extra income. We do see quite a few creators now who have made it into a sustainable, long-term career, and I think that that's the end goal for most of them. To the question of whether brands care or not, I think again, it depends on the brand and it depends what they're looking for out of the relationship with a creator.

If they're looking to work with a wide variety of affiliate creators to sell products, it may not matter as much, but if you want somebody to be a brand ambassador who's recognizable as the face of your brand, you may want somebody who certainly not only takes this seriously, but is professional and has made this their career.

Alexandra Canal:

I know every brand is unique. You were just talking about the follower count. Is that the primary thing that brands are looking for, just the more followers, the better?

Jasmine Enberg:

It shouldn't be.

Alexandra Canal:

So it shouldn't be.

Jasmine Enberg:

I would hope not. Those vanity metrics like follower count have long been the way that brands have measured or identified creators. I think there is still some of that, but we have shifted. So, we have seen brands and marketers become much more sophisticated in their strategies. I think influencer identification overall is still a very difficult challenge for a lot of brands, but the one thing that I always recommend is to start with the audience, not with the creator. Look at where your audience as a brand is spending their time. Who are they engaging with? What are they interested in? And then find creators who can speak to that because that will make it a much more organic natural ownership.

Alexandra Canal:

So is there a magic number of sorts or no? Is it totally dependent on what you said, looking at your audience and looking at the engagement?

Jasmine Enberg:

The question I get all the time, that one and is there a magic formula for virality? The answer to both of those for me at least is no. I think again, it depends on your campaign objectives. If you're looking for wide reach brand awareness, then yes, you're probably going to want to partner with a big name star who has millions of followers. But a lot of times it's those nano, micro-influencers who speak to niche communities who have a stronger ability to be able to drive sales, for example, also maybe more willing to accept an affiliate marketing deal. So, again, there is no magic number. It really should start with your audience and your campaign goals.

Alexandra Canal:

Is there a way to filter out the bots of it all so you know that numbers aren't inflated? Is that a big issue?

Jasmine Enberg:

It is a big issue. I think one of the things that AI is going to help with a lot with influencer marketing is exactly that, both vetting to make sure that follower accounts are accurate and vetting to make sure that the influencer is right for a specific brand.

Alexandra Canal:

You mentioned AI. So, I'm going to jump there because there is an interesting article. Mark Zuckerberg, he gave an interview with The Verge where he said, "Creators and publishers 'overestimate the value of their work for training AI'" and that he would walk away if certain content creators demanded payments. What do you make of those comments?

Jasmine Enberg:

He would say that. Not all creator work is created equal, but it would be remiss to say that creators and influencers have not laid an enormous role in the growth of time spent on social media, the number of social media users as well as in social ad spending. So, next year, we are expecting social video ad spending, excluding YouTube, to actually surpass linear TV ad spending. A lot of that has to do with the halo effect and creators and influencers being on these platforms, developing content that people are engaging with. Without them, the platforms wouldn't have as much content, as much interesting content as they do today. I think the platforms need creators just as much, if not more, than the creators in platforms.

Alexandra Canal:

In the creative community, AI can sometimes be a very scary word and we talk a lot about the downside risks, but are there upsides to this as well and things that creators can use to their advantage?

Jasmine Enberg:

Absolutely. I mean, I think many of the applications of AI that we think about in business apply to creators as well, whether it's things like timed savings for example. I think one of the big advancements that has come out of creator focused AI tools is dubbing or translations, help them reach wider audiences. I think there is a lot of sear and hesitation over whether AI will replace them or replace creators still. I don't think that's going to be the case in the long term. There's always going to be a place for human creativity, even as we're seeing AI avatars start to arise. I do think though that it will help the cream...

Alexandra Canal:

The cream of the crop?

Jasmine Enberg:

... of the crop rise to the upside, I think, yes. There will be a premium on some of this more engaging better content.

Alexandra Canal:

When we talk about more engaging, better content, is there a platform preferences? Would you rather your creators be famous on TikTok as opposed to Instagram? How does YouTube play into it, especially with longer form content? Where are brands really looking at that?

Jasmine Enberg:

Well, Instagram tends to be where most brands start in terms of their influencer marketing campaigns. It makes sense. I mean, Instagram is a huge platform for creators. Influencers always also has a massive audience that tends to be very much in mind with the type of audience that is attuned to creator and influencer content, meaning millennials, Gen, Z. But again, it really shouldn't be about the audience, not the creator and not the platform.

So, brands, when they're looking to partner with creators, should look and see where their audience is. If it's YouTube, then YouTube should be a channel that they're looking into. If it's TikTok, then TikTok. However, I always say to brands and creators to never put all of their eggs into one basket, right? Most creators are active on multiple platforms and campaigns should also be multi-platform at this point.

Alexandra Canal:

We've gotten so used to short clips, I feel like, within social media, but then you see something like YouTube where as mentioned it's taken over all TV time. What are you seeing in terms of the trends there when it comes to the type of content that's working?

Jasmine Enberg:

Yeah, so people love short form video, and I don't think that that is necessarily going to change, but one of the big shifts we've seen in the social media space overall over the past year is this, I wouldn't say, reversal, but move towards longer form content even on TikTok, which now allows videos up to 30 minutes long. I don't know if you watched ReesaTeesa, for example, posting 10-minute long videos. There's certainly a lot more longer content happening on social platforms than people are really paying attention to it.

I think one of the things that's really working on the creator front is more episodic content. ReesaTeesa is a great example. I think it was like 45 10-minute long videos about her terrible ex-husband that people really consumed heavily and then talked about across social media. I think it's a combination. I think it all boils down to the content at the end of the day, and the content should determine not only the length of the videos, but also which platform you're posting.

Alexandra Canal:

So the storytelling aspect seems to be very important.

Jasmine Enberg:

[inaudible 00:25:16] are master storytellers. That's one of the reason that they've risen to become so important to brands.

Alexandra Canal:

You mentioned TikTok. Obviously, a big risk is a potential TikTok ban. One, do you expect this to happen? Two, if it does happen, who would be most affected here?

Jasmine Enberg:

I don't think I'm going to predict if TikTok will be banned. What was the second part of the question? Sorry?

Alexandra Canal:

Who will be most affected if we do see a ban?

Jasmine Enberg:

In terms of creator, yes. So, it's going to look a little different depending on who the creator is. Bigger creators who are active on multiple platforms, who have multiple revenue streams are going to be just fine. Smaller creators who are TikTok only or TikTok first are going to struggle. There is no question about that.

I do think now is the time for creators to diversify their platforms and their revenue streams if they haven't done so already, because this is a very extreme case, but there are always external factors that can impact how they make a living when they're working on social platforms, whether it's algorithmic changes or the potential regulation or a ban like we're seeing in the case of TikTok. So, to your question of who's going to be the most impacted, it's going to be the smaller creators while bigger creators will be...

Alexandra Canal:

How are brands looking at the potential risk of that as well? Are they partnering less with those? They're still going all in on TikTok.

Jasmine Enberg:

I have not seen a marked shift in how brands approach TikTok either for advertising or for influence or marketing. I mean for many of them, it's still a very wait and see moment. None of us know what is going to happen come January. As long as there are people to reach on TikTok, over 100 million monthly users according to our estimates, there is no reason for brands to leave and creators won't leave as long as there's money to be made.

Alexandra Canal:

What about those other social media companies? What could happen there? And if we do see a ban, do you think we will have a new company that becomes the new TikTok or do you think the market share would just shift to an Instagram, Snapchat, Facebook, et cetera?

Jasmine Enberg:

So Meta is the most obvious beneficiary of a TikTok ban because of Instagram Reels in particular. We've seen it make a lot of moves to port TikTok creators. It made changes to its algorithm recently to make it easier for smaller creators, many of whom may have larger audiences on TikTok or don't actually post on Instagram at all to be discovered on the platform. YouTube is another platform that certainly will benefit, and it's also been courting TikTok creators through Shorts. We also saw Shorts just expand to three-minute long videos. I do think there's certainly potential for a new platform to arise. It's not easy to break through as a new social app. You think about all the ones that have tried over the past couple of years, whether they've filmed lemonade.

BeReal, they had their moment in the sun and then fizzled. It really has been TikTok over the past five, six years that has really been able to break through and has had real staying power. So, yes, I mean there's potential for a new one to arise, but much of that engagement and advertising spending will be directing toward existing players like Meta and YouTube.

Alexandra Canal:

Remember Vine? Bring back Vine. I was obsessed with Vine.

Jasmine Enberg:

I do remember Vine. You're aging us though.

Alexandra Canal:

I know, I know. I'm glad that now they totally got rid of all those... They deleted the platform because my Vines were not that good, just saying.

Jasmine Enberg:

Wasn't that early TikTok?

Alexandra Canal:

Yes, that's true. It was.

Jasmine Enberg:

I know. It was too early for its time.

Alexandra Canal:

We're talking about all these different platforms. It feels overwhelming if I'm a creator, if I want to go pursue this, how I market myself correctly or where I even start. So, what would be your advice there?

Jasmine Enberg:

As a creator?

Alexandra Canal:

Yeah.

Jasmine Enberg:

To find a niche? I do think there is still a place for broader lifestyle creators, but it's much easier in this moment where you have the platform saturated with creator content, with creators, with brands who sponsor content to break through if you have found a niche. It needs to be a niche that is authentic, although I hate saying that word, authentic and relatable to who you are as a person. We have seen that shift again over the past year or so with the rise of more niche creators and that really being the way to go to market today.

Alexandra Canal:

As a creator, how do you advocate for yourself when you're programming these brands to make sure that you're putting yourself in a position to succeed and that it's a win-win for both sides?

Jasmine Enberg:

Well, it can be incredibly difficult. I mean, most creators are creatives, not businesspeople at heart. I think there's a big learning curve for them when it comes to getting to the negotiating table and making sure they're advocating for themselves. I think as brands have become more sophisticated and more data-driven, creators need to do the same and really come armed to these conversations with historical data, with examples of their work really to be able to prove their worth and their value to brands.

Alexandra Canal:

We talked a little briefly about creator burnout. What can you do as a brand to make sure that your creators are pumping out consistently strong content, that they're not teetering out, that they're bringing their own voice to these things? Because sometimes I feel like across the board they all start to sound the same, and I feel like that can't break through the messaging that what you need it to be.

Jasmine Enberg:

Yeah, it's a great question. I think one of the things that will help creators and help brands is developing long-term relationships that are more sustainable and more accountable. If a creator knows that they are going to be doing multiple activations with one brand, it will certainly help with this idea of creator burnout, right? Because part of that comes from not knowing where your next paycheck is going to come from. On the brand side of things, it's also helpful to have a creator who hasn't formed a loyalty to the brand, wants to see it succeed, feels accountable to the work that they're doing, and that will really help improve those activations. It also helps for more communication, more in discussion.

I think that's where a lot of these campaigns fall flat is you have a brand coming in and basically trying to force product marketing into a creator video. Of course, brands have a message that they want to get across and creators need to understand that too. But in order to make sure that it comes across in a way that resonates with the community and with the audience, there needs to be a conversation between the brand and the creator who are working on it and make sure they're on the same page up front. There are so many times I've heard stories about, for example, a creator putting together a video for a brand, sending it to them, thinking that it's in line with the brief and having the brand come back and say, "No, that's not what we wanted."

Then they have to go back to the drawing table. That too can contribute to creator burnout and it's frustrating for both parties. So, for me, it all comes down to consistent, clear communication and doing that upfront.

Alexandra Canal:

When we talk about the different subsets of influencers, the micro, the nano influencers, are there different niches that are doing very well right now?

Jasmine Enberg:

A couple of niches or industries that I've been mulling really closely, and you mentioned one of them, financial influencers, that has been a big trend. Again, over the past couple of months, we have seen a lot more financial services brands start to lean into creators and influencers. Another niche is healthcare. There's a lot of risks, of course, involved with both financial services and healthcare. There's a lot more work that needs to be done upfront to ensure that all of this is in line with rules and regulations within the industry. A third is B2B, which I find absolutely fascinating and I think is going to become an even bigger trend next year. A lot of that is centered around LinkedIn, which makes sense because it's a professional social networking platform.

But because of all of the improvements that LinkedIn has made in their own creator program, the way that they have encouraged people to write more thought leadership on the platform, you really have seen this rise in the B2B influencer. Then you've got people, for example, [inaudible 00:34:07] Corporate Natalie. I don't know if you watch them.

Alexandra Canal:

Yeah, all the time. They're hilarious.

Jasmine Enberg:

I feel like they're bridging the gap between B2B and B2C and helping bring more awareness to this space. So, that is an area where I think we're going to see a lot more movement. It makes sense. I mean B2B marketing can be incredibly stale. We're in this moment where the B2B buyer is getting younger. Sometimes it's the same person who's scrolling through TikTok looking for lipstick, who's then at least part of the decision making process for a B2B brand. So, those companies need to learn to speak their language, and who better to work with than better a creator?

Alexandra Canal:

Yeah. So, B2B, you said LinkedIn. So, is that people posting videos, explaining their product and how they could outsource? Because it's interesting you bring that up because someone I went to high school with is now a founder and she posts constantly on LinkedIn videos, explainers, stories. I've talked to her before and she said that's because of the business that I get from that. So, can you dig into that a little bit more? Because I think that is incredibly interesting and new, especially in this new world that we're living in. It's so technologically driven.

Jasmine Enberg:

Yes. I mean that is a great example of a B2B influencer, but there are certainly many other types of B2B influencers as well. It can be an industry expert who writes about things that are happening within the news that apply to a specific industry, for example. It can also be an employee at a company who is writing about it. I think one of the challenges though with B2B influencer goes back to this idea that many of them are tied to a specific company.

So, they may not be able to work or will not be able to work, for example, with a competitor. Identifying those independent thought leaders who can speak authentically and with credibility, which is incredibly important in B2B to your brand, is going to still remain a big challenge. Also, while I'm very bullish on B2B influencer marketing, one of the things I always say is there's also a lot of hacks out there. Do you spend a lot of time on LinkedIn?

Alexandra Canal:

I do.

Jasmine Enberg:

To me, it's the new Facebook. I don't know. I'm outgoing on LinkedIn.

Alexandra Canal:

[inaudible 00:36:18].

Jasmine Enberg:

I know. Sorry. That is me. I also spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. We have seen a huge uptick in engagement actually on LinkedIn. You get personal updates of folks. They post their wedding on LinkedIn. I'm like, "Oh, so-and-so got married," and I feel like it's exploded recently. It's those personal updates mixed with business news, with thought leadership, all of that that keeps people coming back. But because of this and because it's still such a new industry, I feel like it's still the early days of B2C influencer. There's also a lot of hacks out there. I don't know if you've seen this, but I like to compare them to Buzzfeed Listables where you have people who are "thought leaders" saying, "Here are the nine things you need to know to grow your [inaudible 00:37:00]."

So I think weeding out those people, and I'm not saying everybody who does that is a hack. There are some people who do that and do it very, very well. Weeding out those people and finding the real credible authorities to speak about a brand or a product is going to be the first step to making this really grow into the [inaudible 00:37:19].

Alexandra Canal:

When we think about the rise of financial influencers, influencers in the healthcare space, is that to cater more towards Gen Z? What's the main motivation there?

Jasmine Enberg:

So we talk a lot about Gen Z when it comes to creators and influencers and it makes sense. I mean, they're the core audience for it, but it's not just Gen Z who are paying attention to them. When it comes to financial healthcare, a lot of that is for older generations. We do also in the research see that surprising numbers of Gen Xers, for example, are following and are influenced by creators and influencers when it comes to their purchasing decisions. So, I think as influencer, creator marketing continues to expand beyond beauty, fashion, accessories and all those things that we associate it with the most, it's also going to organically bring in new audiences.

Alexandra Canal:

Speaking of Gen Z, what percentage of Gen Z either is an influencer or wants to be an influencer?

Jasmine Enberg:

So this is a crazy stat that came out from YouTube, and I think it was in June that 65% of Gen Zers today consider themselves to be content creators.

Alexandra Canal:

Is the bar low there? I'm mind blown.

Jasmine Enberg:

Well, I mean, social media has democratized content creation. So, anybody can be a creator, which is a fantastic thing. But I think because of some of the stories that we've heard in the media, people tend to think that it's easy. It is not. It is a lot of hard work. If you speak to a creator or an influencer who has built a strong business, they have been at this for years. Yes, there are some viral sensations, but turning that virality into a successful sustainable business is not easy.

So, it's incredible to see that you have so many Gen Zers consider themselves to be creators. I think it's true validation of the creator economy, but it's not an easy path forward and there isn't really a roadmap for success. If you think about other industries, you know the steps that you need to take in order to "make it" and doesn't really exist for a creator or an influencer.

Alexandra Canal:

It seems very cyclical too, because I think of Dixie D'Amelio, Addison Rae. I mean, they became famous just because they were doing TikTok dances essentially. They went viral, got that following, and then all of a sudden, there are these massive creators. So, there's no recipe for success there. When it comes to millennials and older generations, are they more hesitant to dip their toe into the creator world? Why are we seeing Gen Z resonate more with this?

Jasmine Enberg:

Well, Gen Z is the first real digital generation. They grew up on social media, so I think it comes much more naturally to them. I don't know. I am a millennial. I'm of the millennial pink generation with picture perfect Instagram posts. Being an influencer was always this really aspirational thing. You didn't think about creators or influencers as people like you. It's somebody who you may have aspired to be or somebody who sometimes annoyed you. Everything had to be just so.

When TikTok came along, that started to change and we saw much more relatable, I wouldn't say lower quality, but lo-fi content. It became much more easy for people to be able to participate in creating content for social platforms and didn't feel as much that they needed to be so picture perfect online. I think there is still always going to be that pressure, but it's been a lesson. I think that that too has helped grow the number of people who consider themselves to be creators because it's easier to do so than ever before.

Alexandra Canal:

Throughout this conversation, I've been thinking about The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I don't know if anyone watches that, but it's a show that really started because of TikTok, right? There was the mom talk. They started TikTok and now they have a new show. Second season just got approved on Hulu. What does this say about we as a society, what we're gravitating towards and how that's being reflected in pop culture?

Jasmine Enberg:

Yeah, I mean, I would say creators and influencers are a huge part of culture and they set and make trends. They are creating the entertainment that we're talking about, that we're sharing with our friends, that we're posting memes about. Some of that is now actually moving from social media into other channels and The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is a great example. I've only seen three episodes stuff.

Alexandra Canal:

I finished it.

Jasmine Enberg:

You did?

Alexandra Canal:

I did. It was very good.

Jasmine Enberg:

It's very, very good.

Alexandra Canal:

Good binge-watching.

Jasmine Enberg:

It is good binge-watching. I'm actually planning on watching it on a plane tomorrow.

Alexandra Canal:

There you go. Perfect plane watch.

Jasmine Enberg:

We can talk about it. But yeah, we're seeing that in so many different instances. If you think about tentpole events too, like the Olympics or the Super Bowl, you're also seeing creators and influencers move in any of those to a degree that we hadn't really seen in the past, whether that's a Super Bowl ad or NBC is sending creators to cover the Olympics in Paris over this year.

Alexandra Canal:

Yeah, that was a huge trend that I saw. If we zoom out a bit, you talked about how 2024, this is the turning point, when we talk about the pandemic, how did that really accelerate and change the growth trajectory of this industry?

Jasmine Enberg:

That's a great question. Marketers were starting to work with creators and influencers before the pandemic, but all of a sudden, marketing budgets were cut. Production studios were shut down. Many of them realized that they needed to pivot. So, they pivoted towards creators and influencers who don't need more than a smartphone and who produce content, can do that very quickly and easily. Then you had the rise of TikTok at the same time where we had this more low-fi content really starting to resonate with consumers. That stuck after the pandemic and has just continued to grow since then.

What we're seeing now, and I think we talked a little bit about this, is that it's not just sponsored content that brands are asking from creators. They are also repurposing a lot of that creative for their own social channels, also other digital channels, and even bringing that into digital articles, for example.

Alexandra Canal:

So we're wrapping up here. We've obviously talked about so much when it comes to the creator economy, the impact to brands, the nitty-gritty. What's the biggest takeaway that you want us all to walk away from or maybe ponder more of when we leave this room?

Jasmine Enberg:

The biggest takeaway for me is that the creator economy is here and it's here to stay. Creators are incredibly powerful. I think there's still a lot of work to do to get the industry to take creators and influencers seriously. That is part of my job in fact. But we do see that creators and influencers are really adept at not only helping brands and marketers reach new audiences, but drive real results, whether that's sales or conversions. So, I guess to wrap that up, creators are incredibly powerful.

Alexandra Canal:

Here you go. You hear Jasmine Enberg from eMarketer. Thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate it.

Jasmine Enberg:

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you guys.

Marcus Johnson:

Thank you for listening to this special edition episode of Behind the Numbers, made possible by TikTok. Join me on Monday for the Behind the Numbers Daily, where we will check in on how digital ad spending is getting on with Analyst Ross Benish. Happiest of weekends.

First Published on Oct 12, 2024