Behind the Numbers Special Edition: Creator Content: What’s New and What’s Next

Audio by Marcus Johnson, and Jasmine Enberg | Feb 15, 2025

Episode Transcript:

Marcus Johnson (00:00):

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(00:27):

Welcome to a special edition of the EMARKETER podcast Behind the Numbers, made possible by Zeta Global. I'm Marcus Johnson, and today we have a special episode from the EMARKETER Summit Creator Economy Trends 2025, held on February 7th. This episode is a panel discussion about what's new and what's next for creator content. EMARKETER Vice President and Principal Analyst Jasmine Enberg hosts Nicole Weltman, Head of Social from Taco Bell, Bryan Reisberg, Creator, CEO, and Co-Founder of Little Chonk, and Sarah Crockett, Senior Vice President and CMO of DSW. Enjoy.

Jasmine Enberg (01:04):

Hi, everyone. For those of you who are just joining us now, welcome. I'm Jasmine Enberg, Vice President and Principal Analyst here at EMARKETER. And those of you who are coming from the keynote, thank you for sticking around. I am so excited to continue with our programming with our first panel of the day, which is focused on the evolution of creator content. Before we begin, I'd love to do a round of introductions of our great panelists. Can each of you tell us who you are, what you do, and a creator whose content you are loving right now? Bryan, let's start with you since you're first up on my screen.

Bryan Reisberg (01:39):

Sure. My name is Bryan Reisberg. I am the dog dad to Maxine, who is right there. I'm also the CEO of Little Chonk, which is a creator-led pet brand that we started back in 2021. And a creator that I'm really loving right now, it's this guy in Japan, his name is @kantaro_japanwalker. And every day, he is documenting his journey walking across Japan with his dog, and I mean, the engagement is through the roof because he is doing this thing that every day is just galvanizing an audience. He's such a sweet guy. I don't know, it just came out of left field, and I'm just tuning in every day to see this guy's adventures.

Jasmine Enberg (02:20):

Does Maxine watch it with you?

Bryan Reisberg (02:22):

Yeah, yeah, she does.

Jasmine Enberg (02:25):

Sarah, how about you?

Sarah Crockett (02:26):

Hi, Sarah Crockett. I'm the Chief Marketing Officer at DSW. Thank you so much for having me here. I'm going to plug Paige DeSorbo, maybe more of a celebrity influencer of sorts, but also very much a creator in the podcast land and the social land. And just love the message, love the fun. We all need a little bit more of a spark of joy, and she owns it and brings everything to the forefront with her audience.

Jasmine Enberg (02:55):

I love that.

Marcus Johnson (02:56):

Maxine's a giggler.

Sarah Crockett (02:57):

There you go.

Jasmine Enberg (03:01):

Nicole?

Nicole Weltman (03:02):

Yeah, I'm a giggler too. And your campaign that you guys just dropped with Paige looks fabulous. I saw it on her feed this week, so congrats to that. Very timely.

Sarah Crockett (03:11):

Thank you.

Nicole Weltman (03:12):

[inaudible 00:03:12] working with Paige, the content is beautiful. But I'm Nicole Weltman. Hi, great to be here. I'm the Head of Social for Taco Bell across paid, owned, and earned. And a few of my colleagues and I have been sending around content from, it's called MD Foodie Boyz, and they're young, and they have a podcast, and they're on IG, TikTok, and YouTube. It's so professional, they're doing their clipping strategy. So last night I saw a clip of them talking about what they think the difference is between Belgian waffles and regular waffles, and I think I'm still stumped. It's really endearing food content.

Jasmine Enberg (03:55):

I love that. And if any of you in the audience have any favorite creators you want to share, please feel free to drop them in the chat as we're talking. We all need a little bit of inspiration. But let's dive into the content because one of the trends that we have been tracking at EMARKETER for some time now is the migration of creators and their content off of social media. And Bryan, I know when we were talking earlier, you were telling me about an out-of-home campaign that you did with Google Wallet. So could you elaborate a little bit more on that and whether or not you've been getting more of these kinds of requests or inbounds for non-social or omnichannel campaigns from brands?

Bryan Reisberg (04:37):

So we did an out of home campaign for Google Wallet for tap to pay, so they did billboards around all the major subway stations in New York City. And because our journey is so integral to the subway, that's why I carry Maxine, that's why we invented this dog backpack, that's why most people know her, so we were featured in a lot of photography throughout the subway. And then there was a media component, and so we made social content for it, but the social content was just about how cool it is to be an online creator and to be a part of an out-of-home campaign.

(05:10):

And I think that it was about a year and a half ago, but now we're seeing it more and more where creators are stepping off of TikTok. There's a lot of Superbowl commercials this year with Alex Earle and Jake Shane, and that's part of the fun of seeing our favorite creators become a part of more traditional media outlets. And then that in and of itself can turn into great organic media to put on social because when you have these audiences that are following these people who come from wherever, I mean, you're not coming from... We're not celebrities, we're just normal people who grow these audiences and these followings. It becomes really fun for them to be a part of that journey and to see the rise of a lot of these creators stepping into new arenas. So we're seeing it a lot this year, we saw it a lot a few years ago, and we're going to keep seeing more of it, the evolution of the online creator.

Jasmine Enberg (06:09):

And I love that you brought up the Super Bowl TV campaigns because I know, Nicole, you recently worked with a creator at Taco Bell to launch a TV ad. Can you tell us what prompted that and if this is something that you think you might be replicating?

Nicole Weltman (06:24):

We are replicating it. Actually, we just had another shoot this week with a different creator, or it might've been last week. But we launched this with a creator named Ash Xu, spelled X-U, and she's on TikTok and just a really amazing food stylist creator. And we figured this is a place that's just ripe for disruption, and speed to creation and creating things that look and feel like they belong on the internet is more and more important, especially when you look at where our media is placed.

(06:56):

But it's a tried and true tactic. Even when you think back to the traditional spokesperson, you put a celebrity in your spot because then it also helps you get press. They can go out and do interviews. This is flipping the model on its head, but whenever you're making an investment as a brand, the more that you can get out of it and it's not just living in one place, the better. And so for us, we got to mobilize her community. Her channels have a really beautiful, craveable spot that can live on connected TV, social, and TV. And because it's still a newer way of working, we got some press hits out of it as well. So really, really proud of it, and it's just something that we're going to continue to leverage to diversify our content mix.

Jasmine Enberg (07:39):

Was that a difficult sell internally? How did this come about?

Nicole Weltman (07:45):

I think what makes it difficult is that many marketers are just used to doing things a certain way, even the safety blanket that could be video village or a certain way that you feel like a pre-pro or seeing storyboards just makes you feel really confident. But if you grew up in social like I have, I've been working in social for over a decade, I was like, "A video village? Don't know her. Never got it." Right? You're just standing over someone's iPhone. You can leverage the confidence in the way you are used to doing something and bring people along. So it made some people uncomfortable, but we knew that we had enough assets for this particular product to use it as a test, and the results blew everyone away. So now that's a really important component of this is merchandising the success internally and really bringing people along, and now there's so much excitement around it.

Jasmine Enberg (08:37):

Absolutely. And I know, Sarah, DSW uses a ton of creator content in stores. You also recently featured creators in your back-to-school campaign. So how has that been resonating with in-store shoppers particularly?

Sarah Crockett (08:50):

Yeah, it's definitely a space that DSW has been leaning into, and similar conversations to what Nicole and Bryan represented. The beautiful thing about working with creator content and placing it in our marketing channels and then representing it in our stores as well is that, not only does it resonate better with the consumer, but it's also something we can see as a multiplier for our own built content strategies. So featuring people that represent and look like and feel like and can be relatable to our customer base, which is a very large diverse customer base, is a great benefit. So what's the perspective of a creator when it comes to getting their kids and themselves ready for a back-to-school season? Creators can often tell a story about their wedding planning better than we can on our own.

(09:39):

So we tend to like the model of creator plus DSW-built content as a way to represent our point of view. And we've seen a lot of success in that when it comes to weddings, whether it's best friends and celebrating Galentine's and things of that nature, we're certainly leaning into the creator space, and we see our customer responding really nicely to that.

Jasmine Enberg (10:01):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think one of the things that has drawn so many marketers to the creator economy is the diversity of creators. I think you get so many different types of people who are creating content and really speaking to different communities and different audiences, and I think that that is going to continue to be a driver of seeing more creator content really across channels. But even as we're seeing creator content move into out-of-home campaigns, TV, or in stores, social media is still the main hub. And we really are in this era now where basically every social platform is a video platform. I just talked about this during the keynote, and TikTok of course has been a major catalyst in the boom in video content and short video content particularly. So Bryan, oh my gosh, is Maxine awake?

Bryan Reisberg (10:01):

Yeah, she is.

Jasmine Enberg (10:52):

She is? Aww. Well, you and Maxine have over 4 million followers on TikTok. How are you navigating this period of volatility and uncertainty around the platform?

Bryan Reisberg (11:10):

I don't know. We do pretty well in volatile climates because I've been doing this since 2015, and I come from an advertising background. And everything about being a creator, there is no stability to it. So from the jump we were all about diversifying what platforms we were on, who we were talking to, making sure we're getting in front of different audiences. A big thing for us is not just reaching people who were pet evangelists, but also being a part of cultural moments. Like Maxine was on Sesame Street, she got on Ed Sheeran's back, we did stuff with Bert Kreischer.

(11:54):

So diversification is the name of the game, and you really can't rely on any platform. Your business is literally in the hands of another company. So it behooves you to get off of platform. That's why we have a newsletter right now that we launched with another creator that has about 80,000 followers. We launched an events program called Chunk Fest where we bring people off the internet, and we did two events and each one sold out 1500 tickets. So I think in this climate, especially with TikTok, it's like I hope creators that are more novice to this work get the hint of, you can't rely on anybody but yourself. That's just the fact of it. And if you're putting all your eggs in one basket, TikTok can go away. People think it will, it still will go away, and you just have to get your audience ready and start moving onto different platforms. Where we've got our newsletter on Beehiiv, they've been great. So that's what I've been recommending to people is just expect the best, prepare for the worst.

Jasmine Enberg (13:01):

So one of the other things that I love about how you've built your business is that you haven't just diversified platforms, but you've also diversified the types of brands that you work with moving out of pet-endemic brands. Right? Can you tell us a little bit more about that? I mean, you mentioned, we talked about Google Wallet already. But how do you incorporate brands that are outside of the pet industry into your content?

Bryan Reisberg (13:23):

That's what we focus on most now is working with non-pet-endemic brands. We had a really long relationship with Dell. It was about an 18-month-long relationship, which I know seems very non-traditional. It was a leap for them, so good on them. And the thing with pets these days, you put a pet with anything, and it's a cheat code. If you know how to market, then you can make it really work. We're content creators. We have a business. I'm traveling all over the world to do these events. And the suite of products that Dell had fit really well into telling that story, into how you can navigate that part of your life. We talk to car brands all the time because we've got a kid, we need to travel. There are more pets than children in this country, so I think it's not a niche thing. Bringing your dog with you, it's not niche.

[NEW_PARAGRAPH]And it's also a fun, creative challenge. When you get a brand that's like Taco Bell, what would you do with a dog in Taco? Well, we know what they did with a Chihuahua in Taco Bell. But what would you do with a pet creator in Taco Bell? That's fun. It's fun to surprise people. We just put Maxine on the back of, our friend has an account called Old Jewish Men, and we just put Maxine on this old Jewish man's back, and he sat in a Costco eating a hot dog. And people don't know that there's a part of that that's like it's sponcon. It's all meant to be that way. It's like, can you surprise and delight people and meet them at a different place other than just watching cutesy pet content?

Jasmine Enberg (14:56):

And I mean, social media is about surprising and delighting people with your content, but it's also become a sales channel. And Sarah, when we were talking earlier, you said that you were pressing pause on exploring TikTok Shop, but still continuing to lean into the platform in other ways. So could you just elaborate a little bit on how you're doing that and why you are continuing to invest despite the turmoil?

Sarah Crockett (15:21):

Yeah, I think it's a by factor of time really. We were in the process of exploring TikTok Shop and would continue if there's some stability on the platform. But that said, we are still very much invested in reaching and connecting with communities on the platform, working with creators on the platform. You could flip a coin, who knows what direction this is going to go? And we believe the learnings that we're experiencing with this push into TikTok specifically can translate to learning on other platforms, just great best practices for what content is resonating with the consumer landscape today and how that can translate to potentially enhanced strategies for the Instagram platform or YouTube or other. So there's certainly a good benefit to continue to get smarter on content and creator strategies.

Jasmine Enberg (16:13):

Nicole, would you agree with that? Because Taco Bell is really, really good at harnessing TikTok trends and working with a lot of creators to do so. So how do you see the future of TikTok content, specifically when it comes to trending content versus longer-form or more evergreen storytelling with or without TikTok?

Nicole Weltman (16:32):

I think with or without TikTok, the need for brands to embrace trending content was bubbling, and TikTok just put it on an accelerator. The reason why brands need to embrace trending content is because an evergreen strategy can very quickly become a place for complacency or set it and forget it, where you just may have created something a month ago and posted it, and it may not land the same. And so people really are more savvy than ever before, and they know that there are human beings running these channels. You see people be like, "Oh, the intern posted this. Or whoever posted that, give them a raise." People are aware that there are people behind these brands. And so because of just that savviness, the people are embracing brands that are more real-time because that means that they're playing off internet culture and really leaning in and embracing those trends.

(17:30):

Whether or not TikTok stays, trending content will always be a part of the mix. I think the pendulum possibly has swung too far to one side, and it will revert back, but it won't revert back to this more stale evergreen. It will revert back somewhere in between where a personality will still shine through. It's table stakes these days to be unhinged. It feels like everyone's like, "Yeah, we love to see these unhinged brands," but it can't just be unhinged for the sake of it. It has to be true to you. But you can start to see when every brand is just throwing demure or brat around this past summer that people are like, "We get it." And you'll even see these compilations of all the same copy from all these different brand accounts. So you don't want to embrace a trend just for the sake of it without infusing your own human truth, your personality in it. So I think we're going to end up somewhere in between hyper trending, but not go back to static evergreen content.

Jasmine Enberg (18:29):

Yeah, I mean, on a personal level, I mean, I feel like very demure, very mindful, was at least a tipping point for me when I opened my email, and every single email that I had from a brand started with, "Very demure, very mindful." And I was just like enough, there's just way too much of it out there. And I think, to your point about the pendulum starting to swing back, even though it won't go entirely back, that's probably a relief to some brands, no? Because jumping on trends brings with it a lot of challenges. And what are some of the ways that you can sort of mitigate the risks of maybe missing the mark or jumping on a trend too fast and maybe not having it be exactly right for your brand?

Nicole Weltman (19:12):

I actually think that the center reverting back to this middle space is the hardest for brands because you can almost bandwagon a trend, like you were just talking about with your emails, by just using the copy, getting it out fast. The risk with trending is being too late, I think more than anything, or just falling flat and seeming like a bandwagon. And the risk with evergreen content is not feeling like a member of the internet, not feeling like you're fluent in internet culture. The middle ground where you have to understand what your audience cares about, what your brand cares about, and what the internet cares about, and find the bullseye center of those three things, which is literally a strategic imperative that we have at Taco Bell, that is the hardest part. And it takes a lot of science, a lot of trust, and a lot of fluency in all three of those areas.

Jasmine Enberg (20:00):

Sarah, I see you nodding. Is this something that you're also thinking about and struggling with?

Sarah Crockett (20:05):

Yeah, I just think Nicole said it so well. And I'll just build on that and say, in my opinion, it comes down to who you are as a brand first and foremost. If a trend doesn't feel naturally right or important or relevant to your audience, don't follow it just because it's a trend. I think that's when inauthenticity comes forward, and you get called out on that, and consumers are super savvy and smart. They understand that. So I think it's a filter. Using your brand and your positioning and your unique points of differentiation and understanding why customers care about you is the first thing that you need to apply to any decision that you make. What creators you work with, when do you produce content, what are your partnerships, that's all decided by your brand positioning.

Jasmine Enberg (20:53):

Absolutely. And you brought up partnerships, which is a perfect segue into the next topic that I want to talk about because as we've seen creator content evolve, the way that brands and creators work together inevitably needs to evolve as well. And so we're seeing more longer-term partnerships. I know, Bryan, you already brought this up with your partnership with Dell. We're seeing more product collaborations and even some brands and agencies putting creators onto their payroll. So Bryan, I wanted to throw it back to you so you can elaborate a little bit more on your partnership with Dell and any other longer-term partnerships that you've had. And I'm really curious for the creator point of view on both the benefits and the challenges of really being a spokesperson or having a longer term relationship with a specific company.

Bryan Reisberg (21:39):

Sure. As somebody, we've built up a lot of trust in our community, so we take our partnerships very seriously, and we try to be an evangelist for that brand. I want to live, I want to breathe it, I want to tell people why we use it. It becomes a really fun little puzzle. Can we get across? Because I think audiences these days, they know creators do brand partnerships, they know things are ads. Most of the comments on our ads are like, "Wow, this was a pretty good ad. I watched the whole thing." Because I think, when you get into the space where you have this intimate relationship with your audience, you're selling a lifestyle. And if that product can fit into your lifestyle, then I want people to know about it.

(22:24):

So when we were working with Dell and I knew what their mandates were for two quarters away, I could work on integrating that product into my life, and it just became really seamless. So we went traveling, I got content on the plane. I actually used products when we went to SoCal Corgi Beach Day or did Chonk Fest. And then when we made the content, it wasn't just like I spent the weekend making it because it becomes, again, very transparent when you're just doing sponsored content. So I really try and live and breathe the brand with the partnerships that we do.

(22:59):

And I think it just instills so much trust when you're working long-term with a brand and they're willing to make that commitment. And the communications from the brand side, that's also really important. Do they get what's important to me as a creator? And if that extends to me, I mean, I've done deals with long-term brands where I think we've delivered 4X or 5X the number of deliverables just because we want to hit their KPIs, we want to do good work for them. It's not about a paycheck when you have this really integrated relationship and a partnership, it just becomes more meaningful. So it's usually what we look for. We don't try and do one-off deals. And if we do, it just doesn't instill a lot of trust, and it's rare that you come back and it facilitates something more meaningful.

Jasmine Enberg (23:49):

Right? You're more invested in the brand, you're more invested in the product. It makes sense. The other question I have for you is because now with Little Chonk, you obviously have your own product line. How do you balance your own business and brand with brand partnerships from third-party brands?

Bryan Reisberg (24:08):

Oh, boy, that's a question, huh? The backpack is really integral to everything we do. She loves being in it. We love traveling, so I think we got really lucky with it because it's just a part of what we do. So everything that I bring her to do, she's in the backpack. So when Sesame Street called, it's like, "Oh yeah, people know us for the backpack. I'll wear the backpack," and they're like, "Fine." We did a commercial with PetSmart, "Oh, the backpack's the thing. That's why we do it." And a lot of brands that we work with, they know, they get it. So it's great to be able to include it as a part of our story, and the halo effect of that is fantastic.

(24:56):

But we try and be very careful about not hitting people over the head with it. And again, that comes with a diversity with other influencers that we work with, with email campaigns, SMX. We sell the backpack. Well, now she wants out of the backpack. We sell the backpack, but I'm not making constant content about, "Here's the product, here are the benefits," because it's just something people know us for. So we try and be really smart and respectful of our audience because if I'm on the other side of this relationship, I get it. You had a company, I don't want to hear about it all the time. I want to see your adventures. That's why I follow you. So I don't know, we test and we learn every day, and we're in the DMs talking to people, and we usually get a feel if anybody's getting sick of doing too many ads, doing too much of this, doing too much of that.

Jasmine Enberg (25:47):

And I think it helps because it's just so authentic and integral to the content that you're making, right? So I totally understand where you're coming from with that. But I would love to get, Nicole and Sarah, your perspectives on this as well because Sarah, I know you just announced a partnership with Page DeSorbo, but I imagine that you aren't developing a footwear line with every influencer and creator who you work with. So could you talk to me a little bit more about the ways that you incorporate or integrate creators into your campaigns?

Sarah Crockett (26:19):

Yeah, it really varies, and honestly, it's very similar to what Bryan was saying as far as, we pursue genuine, authentic partnerships with each and every person that we enlist as a creator, whether it's a celebrity-level partner or somebody who has 5,000 followers. It's something that we operate internally, and our teams inside of DSW are working hand-to-hand with each and every partner that we do enlist.

(26:48):

We'll have partners who, to your point, maybe we're not curating a line for each and every one, but we have a celebrity stylist partner and Mimi Cuttrell, who last fall helped to guide our consumers around what the best fall trends were, and she was completely on point. And what styles could fulfill that trend within a DSW assortment? We have partners that we're simply working with on content creation. And how are they wearing these products? What are their kids selecting for back to school? What are they looking for for their holiday gift and wish list? And those perspectives shared within their communities and then shared within the DSW communities are just as valuable as a celebrity partnership where we are curating a line of Paige's selection of her favorite shoes for the season and bringing that to life in store.

(27:35):

As I mentioned at the top, this is content that manifests in our stores, in all of our marketing channels, and importantly, on the creators channels. So that is truly just as important as the work that we put into our channels as well because we want to make sure that we're engaging their audience with the DSW brand, but we do look for longer-term partnerships. I totally believe in what Bryan said, and we share that same sentiment. We're not necessarily looking for transactional relationships. We're looking for people who truly have a connection to our brand, are interested in what we have to say and what we have to offer, which is accessible value without compromising your style or personal self-expression. You can be whoever you want, and shoes do a lot of that lifting and expressing yourself. And so hearing different people's personal interests and expression just adds a nice spark to listen and learn about those unique perspectives.

Jasmine Enberg (28:29):

How about you, Nicole? Because when we spoke earlier, you said that you had three different speeds with which you worked with creators. What do you mean by that, and how do you balance those three?

Nicole Weltman (28:38):

Exactly what Bryan and Sarah have been talking about. For us, we have a lot of new news. Our food calendar and certain menu items are turning over nearly monthly on a four-week basis, but there's long-tail narratives that also we want to make sure we're delivering to consumers. So the three different speeds are long-term, very long-term annual, something in between where it might be a few pulses throughout the year, but still really developing that relationship, learning about each other. And then especially in the food business, there are some people that are talking a little bit more news. It might feel a little bit more like they just want to cover what's hot and the latest buzz. And so while we'll still develop a long-term relationship with every creator that we work with, we might enlist them for one product in a short flight, but they know that they'll be hearing from Taco Bell again.

(29:25):

So those are the three speeds of varied campaign, touch points and pulses throughout the year, or this always-on type of relationship. And I'll just say, it's so tempting when you read the trades, and you hear everything about AI and being able to activate at scale and move quickly and provide cost efficiencies. That comes at a price, and I think the biggest takeaway we're all seeing, the three of us, is that the personal relationships really do, they take the time to curate, but they pay you back either as a creator or a brand in spades.

Jasmine Enberg (29:57):

And I think that is a perfect note to end on. I have so many more questions for the three of you, and I wish I could talk to you for longer, but we do have to cut it here. Sarah, Bryan, and Nicole, thank you again so much for this great conversation. We really appreciate it.

Marcus Johnson (30:13):

That's all we have time for this episode. Thank you so much to Jasmine, Nicole, Bryan, and Sarah for the conversation. Thank you, of course, to the whole editing crew: Victoria, John, Lance, and Danny, Stuart who runs the team, and Sophie who does our social media. Thanks to everyone for listening in to Behind the Numbers, an EMARKETER video podcast made possible by Zeta Global. Tune in Tuesday, we're off Monday, happy Presidents' Day, February 18th for the next episode of Behind the Numbers where we discuss Google versus the rest of the GenAI world.